A couple of design students in the States created quite a buzz recently with a forum about their major project...a Kawasaki KX85-powered super-lightweight dirt bike!
Instead of 'being ware' as they jokingly (or were they serious) entitled their forum, we were really happy that the concept of of superlight off-road bikes resonates with so many people, and we weren't too worried about an immediate threat to our little niche in the bike industry since we know oh too well how long it takes to get into production from the first prototype stage :)
Here's a copy of my first reply to their forum below, and you can link to it and the whole conversation from here:
http://www.apriliaforum.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1654555&postcount=79My first reply to Project M85:
I've got Google Alerts set to "FX Bikes" so saw your post that way.
I founded FX Bikes 5 years ago and we've since been working through 4 generations of prototype like the one you guys built, so I appreciate the work you've done! For a 'student project' you've definitely done an awesome job and earned all the praise and attention you've got.
Let me give you and the forum some comments based on this experience...
- Really liked your thoroughness in this design study. You covered a whole lot of design process bases in a very short time, well done.
- Geometry comparison was good, although not sure why you chose a 450cc dirt bike, and your seat height ended up higher even than theirs, but overall nice work on crossing over between that and DH.
- 2-stroke engine: we spent a year or so researching and prototyping with 2-strokes, including direct injection (visited Orbital Engine Corp that did the Aprilia DITECH system for example)...in the end the conclusion was that regulations will not allow commercial production of 2 strokes to continue in any major form except for closed circuit competition, for which you'd need to create a race category, and even there the CRF150 (and some trials bikes) are starting to change to/dominate with 4 stroke. Hell, the head engineer of Orbital, the world's premiere 2 stroke injection company, said 'go 4 stroke!' Which is a bummer coz we've been wanting to do exactly what you've done kitting out KX85/100s!!
- Unfortunately Honda won't sell you, us or anyone their CRF150 engine dammit. The engine is the key, not just what to use but will anyone sell it to you ex-factory! If you buy engines/parts retail/wholesale, then sell bikes retail/wholesale, that's not much of a margin for investors to get excited about. We've just secured exclusive supply of excellent 125cc 4 strokes from Daytona Japan, based on their XR50 hop up kits but now sold as complete engines. 12hp is way less than the KX85/100 but goes real well in a 57kg/125lb (wet) bike.
- Not just engines but all parts need factory supply as you know...which means minimum order quantities in the 100s or 1000s to get realistic prices. Funnily enough we talked to Craig at Avalanche Downhill Racing too, and although his forks look great he said he's not a mass manufacturer and can only sell at dealer prices...again no margin.
- Someone said that price would not be an issue when compared with DH bikes etc. True we've taken orders for US$15,000 titanium framed bikes, but in such small numbers that we couldn't reach minimum quantities for Ti ($2000 for the bar to make the steerer tube!!)
- Trials bike application. We've had Warren Laugeson, 7 times New Zealand and Australian Trials Champion, test all our prototype generations, and you guys were right in saying that trials bikes are very specialized for what they do..totally different geometry (footpegs near rear wheel for balancing on back wheel, steep steering head for balancing on front wheel), huge (10kg/22lb...add this rear wheel alone and your bike and ours is up to trials weight) baloon tire on rear for incredible grip, no seat and superlow standover, 5 inch travel set for awesome preload launches....
- As you said DH components were key to weight reduction...get the bike light enough and some modified DH parts can actually handle the application. Some won't, like the Hope front brakes you mentioned as a potential weak point...we used the Hope 6-pot titanium brakes for prototypes which were great but eventually fade on downhill, 2mm rotors not dissapating enough heat...AND Hope won't sell for this application because their bicycle liability insurance wouldn't cover it (an issue for all suppliers of course).
- You said the FX had a weakness in its rear bicycle shock, which was correct for earlier prototypes, but we now use either the Fox MXR Air pit bike/KLX110 shock at 600gms, and we've been testing the new Marzocchi pit bike coilover with reservoir.
- Electric. A few comments have said go electric, which you guys said you'd like to look at and referred to the other guys who've done that, namely
www.electricmoto.com, which started with Marzocchi Supermonster 12" DH forks and DH wheels but with battery weight so high migrated to Ohlins MX front and rear and 19" MX front wheels on front and rear...total weight 199lbs with various reports on recharge range, most still not looking good for trail rides. Everyone is waiting for better battery technology to increase range in lighter packages, so the key in the marketplace is how do you differentiate your offering and/or gain a technical/production advantage over Blade or others?
- Manufacturing. Minimum order quantities are one major hurdle, the cost of ordering each and every part then getting it through the production cycle asap is critical, tooling for injection molding etc is a huge cost as you know, quality control, parts manuals, etc. are massive...from great concept models and handbuilt bike-building to pre-production has taken us years in 3D modeling, supplier relationships, contracting etc...Now we have a great factory tooling up at their cost, to be paid back per unit, and reasonable cost units due from March 08...I don't want to celebrate until the first container comes out!
- Marketing. A wise man said that if the cost of making a good product is $50,000, the cost of getting it packaged ready for retail sale will be $500,000, and the cost of actually selling it will be $5,000,000. One of our advisors was vice president of distribution for Harley Davidson and estimated we'd need 600 dealers in the USA alone to eventually cover that market properly...what does it cost to sign up 600 dealers? But dealers (or distributors) are unsure about taking on a new product when they don't know how much demand there is, so we have to generate a lot of that demand ourselves first...even with an awesome product that takes road trips, expos, magazine reviews, events, press releases...just to write a professional press release costs really good money. But that all will be the fun part!!
Where are you guys based, Colorado? We've got an office in Los Angeles and will be building up R&D and marketing in the Inland Empire alongside Honda, Yamaha, Pro Circuit etc in 08, so let's see if we can hook up.
Drop me an email at
mh@fxbikes.com if you like and maybe we can go trail riding in Colorado some time! Not that it'd turn into a race at all, not with me riding anyways
Shocking I know but we felt it necessary to have a beautiful girl clean some mtn motos in Newport Beach California...then she got all model-esque and started posing for the camera...let us know what your favorite shots are so we can improve our photography skills :)
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